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0:00:05.280,0:00:12.080This is Speaking of Shakespeare conversations about things Shakespearean I'm Thomas Dabbs0:00:12.080,0:00:15.920broadcasting from Aoyama Gakuin University in central Tokyo0:00:17.120,0:00:25.440this talk is with Andy Kessen of the University of Roehampton among many research accomplishments in0:00:25.440,0:00:35.440early modern drama Andy has recently assembled a team and secured a substantial AHRC grant to study0:00:35.440,0:00:43.840bears and bear baiting in Elizabethan England the project is entitled Box Office Bears0:00:46.160,0:00:51.120This talk is made possible with institutional funding from Aoyama Gakuin University0:00:51.680,0:00:57.840and with the support of a generous grant from the Japan Society for the Promotion of Science.0:00:58.800,0:01:06.160Well hello Andy hello again it's been a it's been too long it's been too long and0:01:06.160,0:01:11.200i think we go back i think we've known each other because we've had similar research interests for0:01:11.200,0:01:17.280you know me for more years than you but that i don't know when we first met it may have been0:01:17.280,0:01:24.480in canada it may have been at stratford ontario at that conference where we actually met face to face0:01:24.480,0:01:30.320and then you and jimmy came through tokyo not that long after that and we went out and had0:01:30.320,0:01:36.960some wonderful sushi with ben crystal right and i had to leave early unfortunately i had another0:01:36.960,0:01:42.880again and i really wanted to stay for that but ben was in town and what a nice coincidence and then0:01:44.080,0:01:49.920i saw you again at that absolutely exquisite before shakespeare conference it's one of my0:01:49.920,0:01:55.280fondest memories of conferences but also just memories those few days0:01:55.280,0:02:01.520over in rowhampton with those people uh it's just the exactly the kind of people you would0:02:01.520,0:02:11.040like to spend three days with we had a blast and we learned so much and for our our viewers0:02:11.040,0:02:16.160what i want to do is start out you're doing some things you're doing a lot of work and0:02:16.960,0:02:21.680one of the things i want to feature right now is that you are doing a series of interviews sort0:02:21.680,0:02:27.760of like these in a similar type of format but a little bit more of a kaleidoscope of people0:02:27.760,0:02:33.440who are from various and sundry disciplines who are all very interested uh interesting before the0:02:33.440,0:02:42.320show i was going through a few of those and it's called a bit lit a bit b-i-t lit l-i-t0:02:42.960,0:02:47.680now tell us a little bit about that in the future is it something you're going to keep doing or0:02:48.400,0:02:53.680something that is for i don't know pandemic purposes because it sort of was provoked by0:02:53.680,0:03:01.360the pandemic right so uh yeah yeah um thank you so much for kind introduction tom um that's really0:03:01.360,0:03:07.200generous of you um yeah so a bit that is a lot like the film series that you've set up here0:03:07.200,0:03:14.160um i as soon as covert hit really i felt like i was surrounded by all the people that i love0:03:14.720,0:03:18.880worrying about the things that they love and whether they matter anymore people asking do0:03:18.880,0:03:23.440the humanities matter does theatre matter does performance matter does writing matter0:03:23.440,0:03:28.640at a time of medical emergency um and it seems to me that those things matter as much if not0:03:28.640,0:03:35.920more at a time of medical emergency so yeah a bit which was set up with um callan davis and emma0:03:35.920,0:03:43.040whipped a and james opry and matt martin not not just by myself um was just aiming to celebrate um0:03:43.680,0:03:49.360those things and to give us a space almost a space to meet for coffee or to me if you were0:03:49.360,0:03:54.000researching a library and bumped into a colleague just that sense of serendipity of who you you0:03:54.000,0:04:00.640might run into and it was very important to us that we we looked as widely as possible in terms0:04:00.640,0:04:05.920of the sorts of people and the kinds of content that we might cover um the three academics on the0:04:05.920,0:04:11.120project are all early modernists we all sit in the 16th and 17th century and we all look at english0:04:11.120,0:04:16.000literature so actually we're quite narrowly defined in terms of our research interests0:04:17.200,0:04:21.680but it was really important to us we made that as as broad as possible so we've spoken to0:04:21.680,0:04:28.400creative writers to performers of all kinds of different disciplines not just theatre0:04:29.360,0:04:34.960and we've spoken to academics across a wide range of topics not as wide as i'd like it0:04:34.960,0:04:37.760to be we always want to hear from other people who'd like to come and speak to us0:04:38.800,0:04:44.160but yeah it's been really fun really fun project well i see you're putting these out about once a0:04:44.160,0:04:52.480week and i i know from experience now that that's not easy uh that's a that's at a pretty good clip0:04:52.480,0:04:58.560and uh getting people set up and getting the timing and also you're going through i'm assuming0:04:58.560,0:05:04.800various like i am various time zones where you you may have to wake up early or go to bed late0:05:05.680,0:05:11.440right now it's your morning it's my evening and as we talk the sun will go down right and you0:05:11.440,0:05:16.480will you will have more and more sunshine which is good that's fine that that's the way it should be0:05:16.480,0:05:23.200but uh but i fully agree with you we're sort of focused on shakespeare here because i'm on a grant0:05:23.200,0:05:31.760but one of the driving things behind this was would be to expose people and not just0:05:32.400,0:05:39.040specialists but expose people to who we are there are misconceptions about the ivory tower about us0:05:39.040,0:05:48.320being maybe smug and uh detached from society and in your research if there is anyone more engaged0:05:48.320,0:05:54.400with the popular consciousness not only now but in the 16th century i can't think of anyone who0:05:54.400,0:06:00.560is uh in your work you have really brought out the uh drama before shakespeare and we're going0:06:00.560,0:06:06.800to go to before shakespeare in just a moment but those elements that led up to an extraordinarily0:06:07.520,0:06:13.920large and growing public reception that was set in place pretty much before shakespeare0:06:14.480,0:06:22.560got in there and that's what he inherited and very much benefited from uh the the people coming to0:06:22.560,0:06:28.880the theater but also the dramatic techniques that were developed during that period before0:06:28.880,0:06:35.920shakespeare and i would like you to kind of recap your your interest in this area before shakespeare0:06:35.920,0:06:41.680what drew you to it and uh what excites you about it what excites me about it too i might jump in at0:06:41.680,0:06:45.840one point but i think it's about the same thing so tell us a little bit about that if you may0:06:46.960,0:06:51.680uh well i did my phd on a writer called john lilly who is a contemporary shakespeare but0:06:51.680,0:06:56.800born 10 years earlier and the thing that i found most challenging with that phd was that0:06:56.800,0:07:04.160just those additional 10 years the kind of the the the decades jump in kind of historical context0:07:05.680,0:07:10.160made me feel orphaned from the kinds of scholarship that we have on the 1590s0:07:10.160,0:07:14.480and onwards and we do have some grasp on the 1580s when it comes to the theater we0:07:14.480,0:07:20.480think of dr faustus and spanish tragedy i think of marlow who you've written about so brilliantly tom0:07:20.480,0:07:26.480but unlike the 1590s it doesn't feel like we have a kind of a holistic wide-ranging knowledge0:07:27.040,0:07:32.800of that decade and then if we get to the decades before that it just felt like there was um0:07:32.800,0:07:38.560relatively little scholarship and happening um in in wonderfully detailed ways um david kaufman is a0:07:38.560,0:07:42.960great example of the kinds of brilliant archival work that was happening has been happening in0:07:42.960,0:07:47.920in the earlier period but no one really pulling putting things together and trying to take a wider0:07:47.920,0:07:53.040a wider view of the period um and in particular i don't really feel anyone looked at those0:07:53.040,0:07:58.320those theaters those playhouses as a group and said what on earth is going on there so that0:07:58.320,0:08:06.000was sort of my essential research question is why from at least the 1560s and even more0:08:06.000,0:08:13.600strongly in terms of our evidence base in the 1570s why do these public-facing profit-making0:08:13.600,0:08:20.720uh ventures start popping up in london we go from zero to over ten in a decade i can't see0:08:20.720,0:08:25.760that happening anywhere else possibly on the planet in those years um and certainly not in0:08:25.760,0:08:30.080europe even places like spain seem to be a few years behind and in somewhere like spain you0:08:30.080,0:08:36.480tend to have one or two theaters per city london suddenly has ten and um as i say i didn't really0:08:36.480,0:08:40.960feel like anyone was joining joining up those dots and i'm working on john lilly who works for0:08:41.680,0:08:45.440he wrote for a company of boy actors and then thinking about someone like marlo0:08:45.440,0:08:49.680who's writing mostly for a group of adult actors but again those dots are not being0:08:49.680,0:08:54.480joined either i don't have any sense really of how those theater companies how they operated0:08:54.480,0:08